Sideways:

It's interesting that this discussion is taking place without any input from women.

We take our own struggles so seriously, but it's always easy to rationalize away the suffering of the "other."

 

As far as my perception goes:

1. There are more feminist men than feminist women.

2.There are more feminine women than feminist women.

3.Distortion and fabrication precede rationalization of which committed feminists are apt enough.

regards

 

 

AggressiveProgressive:

Feminism does have some valid points from a sociological perspective. Empirically, it can be measured that women are marginalized to some extent, even in everyday conversation. They are interrupted more, and people are less likely to take their opinions seriously. However, things are nowhere near as bad as a radical feminist would have you believe. Furthermore, some of their ideas are just plain ridiculous.

The other day I read an article that argued that since women make 77 cents for every dollar a man makes, women should only have to pay 77 cents on the dollar for goods and services. Not only is that idea horrible and unfair, it would most likely destroy society and make all people worse off.

Despite CP's tone, he does have a point as well. There are benefits to being a woman. They don't have to worry about being drafted, they fare better in court (from custody battles to murder trials), they pay less money for certain types of insurance, etc.

Some claim that women are "objectified," but men have begun to be objectified as well. Just walk into an Abercrombie and Fitch or Calvin Klein store and you will see what I mean. Same thing with Bowflex ads and so forth. Furthermore, this objectification of both sexes gives those who are objectified power. People who are considered beautiful, typically have higher wages and so forth.

All things considered, women in the developed world have it pretty good. There is an increasing number of women in influential roles in society, so even if that is a woman's goal, it is not so unrealistic anymore.

As for men, we make more money and are less marginalized intellectually (even though the inequality is lessening). We also don't have to go through the pain of birth, and are physically stronger and thus less likely to be sexually abused (once adults).

Obviously there are pros and cons to both sexes, so really there is no need to make such overarching generalizations that men are being victimized or women are being vicitimized. As for specific areas of inequality, one may present valid arguments.

 

Whether or not you spare 77 cents of a dollar is immaterial. Money and wealth is moving to women automatically. Here is what Delhi Commissioner of Police says.

Times of India 7/1/2007

"25% rise in suicide cases.
New Delhi;An interesing fact which came up for discussion at the
conference was the increase in suicides in the city. Commissioner
K.K.Paul said the suicide graph had gone upby 25% in2006. The number
of males committing suicide was much more than female, "While in 2005
about 1000 cases of suicide were reported, in 2006 we had 1, 254
cases. The number of males was almost the double of female" he said. According to the police, most of the suicides committed by men were because of economic constraints. "

 World believes that world is male dominated and hence women are oppressed whereas:

1.Men face more arrests than women.

2.Men face more accidents than women.

3.More men than women commit suicide

4. In average women live longer than men.

regards

"It is false that women only make 77% of what men do."CP

 Feminists place their argumenta and men place their arguments but feminists' arguments get accepted howsoever unsound may be and men's arguments are rejected howsoever cogent may be. Here lies the tragedy.

regards

 

Jogeshwar:

For age difference please see United Nations Human Development Index reports. For suicide please see WHO figures and graph.

Sorry, this is still far too general. The HDI is many pages long. Which WHO report? What year? Which countries? What dates? What income levels? I need something specific otherwise you're just handwaving.

(Hm. Has CP found his sock puppet?)

Feminism is the radical notion that women are human beings. Nothing more, nothing less. It's weird how some guys get all, dare I say it, hysterical about that. 

Mr. Farlops:

Jogeshwar:

For age difference please see United Nations Human Development Index reports. For suicide please see WHO figures and graph.

Sorry, this is still far too general. The HDI is many pages long. Which WHO report? What year? Which countries? What dates? What income levels? I need something specific otherwise you're just handwaving.

(Hm. Has CP found his sock puppet?)

Feminism is the radical notion that women are human beings. Nothing more, nothing less. It's weird how some guys get all, dare I say it, hysterical about that. 

Could you not find the average male and female difference of life expectancy in HDI of any previous year?

So far as WHO is concened please make a search of "World Health Organisation on suicide" and find the graph-

"Evolution 1950-2000 of global suicide rates (per 100'000)"

regards

"Other" depends on the speaker. For men, sometimes, the other is women. For women it's sometimes men. For poor people, it might be the rich and vice versa. My point is that we often fall into the trap of seeing the world as a dichotomy of "us and them." My sense is that you're doing that.

It's possible that both men and women experience oppression, though in different situations and in different ways. We don't need to insist that life is all beer and skittles for women in order to recognize the very real problems that men, as a gender, face.

I'm totally open to the possibility that societies are becoming more atrocious against men, but I don't see the point of complaining about how easy life supposedly is for women. Whether men do it or women do it, whining enviously about another group's privileges never results in positive change.

When I wrote that women have it pretty good in the developed world, I meant from a broader perspective. In the contemporary developed world, the material standard of living for both genders is at an all-time high. That doesn't mean that things can't still get better. We must always strive to improve the human condition.

Of course, material wealth is just one part of the standard of living. Freedom and equality are two other important components. Obviously men and women do have substantive biological differences that might make perfect equality unnattractive. Ideally, technology could move us toward a postgender society.

Depression rates for both sexes has been steadily increasing, despite our increasing material wealth. This leads me to believe that the culture of hyperconsumerism is leaving people unfulfilled. We are constantly bombarded with ads telling us what we should want, and when we spend our hard earned money on them, we are left unsatisfied.

Furthermore, it is this same hyperconsumerism that is contributing the the stereotyping and objectification of both sexes. Gender is a cultural construct, and it is reinforced often in a detrimental way by corporations. Thus, to allieviate this problem, we must find ways to limit corporate control of the world. My preferred method of going about this would be decentralized and open source modes of production.

Considering all these things, it seems silly to bicker over which gender is more oppressed. We should just get over it and work toward a better human condition.

Jogeshwar:

Could you not find the average male and female difference of life expectancy in HDI of any previous year?

That gap has always been there, and in post-industrial countries, it really isn't that large. In some places it's shrinking; in others it may be widening. The point is you don't have any evidence that the the gap is widening overall. Sorry not good enough.

Jogeshwar:

So far as WHO is concened please make a search of "World Health Organisation on suicide" and find the graph- "Evolution 1950-2000 of global suicide rates (per 100'000)"

Okay, finally something specific. Yes, according to that graph that you cited (By a reputable source.), the suicide rate for men has increased faster over the last 50 years (But not really alarmingly in my opinion.). So what is that really due to? What are the causitive factors behind that effect? I think you'll have a very hard time proving that it's due to feminist harpies trying to keep the good men down.

I could make the assertion that the increase male suicide rates are due to the disruptive effects of poorly planned, and undemocratic, globalization but that would be irresponsible too. 

Mr. Farlops:

Jogeshwar:

For age difference please see United Nations Human Development Index reports. For suicide please see WHO figures and graph.

Sorry, this is still far too general. The HDI is many pages long. Which WHO report? What year? Which countries? What dates? What income levels? I need something specific otherwise you're just handwaving.

(Hm. Has CP found his sock puppet?)

Feminism is the radical notion that women are human beings. Nothing more, nothing less. It's weird how some guys get all, dare I say it, hysterical about that. 

 

As I smell here is an invitation to lock horns. If so,

1.Is it desirable for betterhumans community to lock horns?

2. Does betterhumans community believe in soft power or hard power?

3. Is ignorance  bliss and knowledge is curse?

regards

 

"As I smell here is an invitation to lock horns."

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

Depression seems to be more prevalent because (1) women don't have anything to do once their kids are in daycare and their welfare and alimony checks are in the bank except drink, watch TV, envy Hollywood trash, and complain about how oppressed they are, and (2) men must work increasingly harder without reward in order to suport women.

A balance has to be restored.

Jogeshwar:

As I smell here is an invitation to lock horns.

Yes, it was. Specifically why have neither you nor CP responded to my assertions in post 13412? If we are going to lock horns, let's discuss something substantial.

CP:

Depression seems to be more prevalent because (1) women don't have anything to do once their kids are in daycare and their welfare and alimony checks are in the bank except drink, watch TV, envy Hollywood trash, and complain about how oppressed they are, and (2) men must work increasingly harder without reward in order to suport women.

CP, CP, CP--tsk, tsk, tsk. Where is your evidence? Baseless assertions due not an interesting argument make. (And now, with the arrival of Jogesh, I gotta get it in stereo. Ay!)

Mr. Farlops:

Jogeshwar:

As I smell here is an invitation to lock horns.

Yes, it was. Specifically why have neither you nor CP responded to my assertions in post 13412? If we are going to lock horns, let's discuss something substantial.

 

I am not here to lock horns with any body. Your attitudes are enough to lock horns with you.

regards

Mr Farlops,

I suggest we stop feeding the troll... aka jogesh

AggressiveProgressive:

Mr Farlops,

I suggest we stop feeding the troll... aka jogesh

 

Dear AP,

Will you please elaborate?

regards